Britishness

[kevin123]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

I would like to talk about Brithishness. To be more precise, what does Brithishness actually mean, what´s the idea of Brithishness?

In the first instance, I would like to sketch my idea of Brithishness: Basically it`s the British word for multiculturalism in Britain. So what´s the so-called multiculturalism? I´ll explain this word by reference to a case study: In a country, called Bombalius, Germans and Indians live together. Both Germans and Indians respect the culture of the opposite. One day some people which were born in one of Bombalius´s colonies immigrate to Bombalius. Instead of oppressing them, Bombalius´s inhabitans allow the immigrants to contribute their culture.
The example shows clearly that multiculturalism contains both tolerance of the inhabitans and the citizen´s respect towards immigrants. The more ethic groups are living together, the more stronglier is the newly growing culture.

Best,
Kevin

[Keswick]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

I would like to talk about Britishness. To be more precise, what does Britishness actually mean, what´s the idea of Britishness?

In the first instance, I would like to sketch my idea of Britishness: Basically it`s the British word for multiculturalism in Britain. So what´s the so-called multiculturalism? I´ll explain this word by reference to a case study: In a country, called Bombalius, Germans and Indians live together. Both Germans and Indians respect the culture of the opposite. One day some people which were born in one of Bombalius´s colonies immigrate to Bombalius. Instead of oppressing them, Bombalius´s inhabitans allow the immigrants to contribute their culture.
The example clearly shows that multiculturalism contains both tolerance of the inhabitans and the citizen´s respect towards immigrants. The more ethic groups are living together, the stronger the newly growing culture becomes.

Best,
Kevin

 
 
Hi Kevin, so what do you want us to do now? Comment on it? Or just correct it?
 
You know what I don't get is this:
Why is Britishness the word for multiculturalism in Britain? Britishness is the state of being British and it refers to what binds and distinguishes the British people. Fair enough.. so far you are correct because immigrants can indeed feel British. But the tolerance of born and bred British towards immigrants (and vice versa) is no explanation for Britishness as such, do you know what I mean? I do like your example with the Germans and the Indians but from a Cultural Anthropological point of view the expressions Britishness and multiculturalism have nothing in common. Maybe you want to explain it a little further?

[kevin123]

Both comment and correction!

In my point of view, Britishness is quite similar to multiculturalism, as both mean that it´s a Union in which people of different nationalities are living in harmony. Perhaps multiculturalism means only coexistence of different ethnic groups. However, I´ve just heard about this topic, so please comment on it!

Best,
Kevin

[Keswick]

But why reduce it to "Britishness"? In what way is Britishness, i.e. different nationalities living in Great Britain, different from something like "Europeaness"? There are so many nationalities living together in the countries of Europe. Nobody bothered summing them up as "Europeaness", so why do it for the different nationalities that live in Britain?

Plus.. what if a woman from Pakistan does not feel British.. will she be excluded? What if I said "I like it here but I can't say I feel British", would I be excluded from the Britishness? Would those people be excluded from the solidarity of this group? Excluding those people from the state of Britishness would still not exclude them from multiculturalism, which shows that the term Britishness and multiculturalism are not interchangeable.

Britishness is the state of being British, while multiculturalism is a sociophilosophical theory aimed at the politics of a country to provide the interchange and acception of different cultures in one country. We are discussing two different approaches to identity which, in all fairness, could be reduced to a common denominator, but doing this would take a lot more scientific research than giving an example about Germans and Indians.

Sorry Kevin, maybe I am getting the wrong end of the stick but I still can't see the connection between Britishness and multiculturalism... and maybe I have my scientist head on and just make things far too complicated. Sorry if I do.

[Duckduck]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

I would like to talk about Britishness. To be more precise, what does Britishness actually mean, what is the idea of Britishness?

In the first instance, I would like to sketch my idea of Britishness: Basically it is the British word for multiculturalism in Britain. So what is this so-called multiculturalism? I will explain this word by reference to a case study: In a country, called Bombalius, Germans and Indians live together. Both Germans and Indians respect each others' culture. One day some people who were born in one of Bombalius´s colonies immigrate to Bombalius. Instead of oppressing them, Bombalius´s inhabitans allow the immigrants to contribute to their culture.
The example clearly shows that multiculturalism comprises both tolerance of the inhabitants and the citizens'nn respect towards immigrants. The more ethnic groups are living together, the stronger the newly growing culture becomes.

Best,
Kevin

Hi Kevin, so what do you want us to do now? Comment on it? Or just correct it?

You know what I don't get is this:
Why is Britishness the word for multiculturalism in Britain? Britishness is the state of being British and it refers to what binds and distinguishes the British people. Fair enough.. so far you are correct because immigrants can indeed feel British. But the tolerance of born and bred British towards immigrants (and vice versa) is no explanation for Britishness as such, do you know what I mean? I do like your example with the Germans and the Indians but from a Cultural Anthropological point of view the expressions Britishness and multiculturalism have nothing in common. Maybe you want to explain it a little further?

I agree with Keswick! I would say that fairness, tolerance, acceptance of otherness, eccentricity, sense of humour, sense of justice and many more that I can't think of right now, are all traits of Britishness. And of course they are helpful in establishing a peaceful and culturally stimulating togetherness of different cultures. However, let's face the facts: even in this great country it doesn't really work, does it?

Duckduck, who will never give up hoping for better days!

[kevin123]

"But why reduce it to "Britishness"? In what way is Britishness, i.e. different nationalities living in Great Britain, different from something like "Europeaness"? There are so many nationalities living together in the countries of Europe. Nobody bothered summing them up as "Europeaness", so why do it for the different nationalities that live in Britain?"

That´s quite intresting, Keswick! I´ll provide you an answer: Britain´s citizens think of themselves as British but also Welsh, Scottish, ... . So let´s have a look on Europe: The idea of the European Union (EU) is to create a political, economic and social "Europeaness". However, no country is intrested in founding a real political or social Union. Germany - for instance - is part of the EU, as the Germans benefit from the free trading agreement. That means, Europe´s inhabitans doesn´t think of themselves as a European but as a German or Danish. I hope you understand my argument.

"Plus.. what if a woman from Pakistan does not feel British.. will she be excluded? What if I said "I like it here but I can't say I feel British", would I be excluded from the Britishness? Would those people be excluded from the solidarity of this group? Excluding those people from the state of Britishness would still not exclude them from multiculturalism, which shows that the term Britishness and multiculturalism are not interchangeable."

That´s quite hard to answer, but I´ll have a try! I reckon that she will be excluded from Britishness, as she doesn´t think of herself as a British. But she won´t be exluded from multicuturalism, since multiculturalism is just the coexistance of different ethnic groups in one country. You`re absolutely right!

Best,
Kevin

[Keswick]

That´s quite interesting, Keswick! I´ll provide you an answer: Britain´s citizens think of themselves as British but also as Welsh, Scottish, ... . So let´s have a look on Europe: The idea of the European Union (EU) is to create a political, economic and social "Europeaness". However, no country is intrested in finding a real political or social union. Germany - for instance - is part of the EU, as the Germans benefit from the free trading agreement. That means, Europe´s inhabitans don´t think of themselves as a European but as a German or Danish. I hope you understand my argument.

I do understand your argument but the thing is, Kevin, that the British are united in order to create a political, economic and social Britishness. This unity, however, is created by the government and what you say "that Britain's citizen think of themselves as British but also as Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish" is wrong. The people in Great Britain see themselves and English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish and they are very proud of being recognised as individual nationalities. They only consider them British at second instance. That's something most continental Europeans tend to forget. British yes, but their individual nationalities are much more important to the people of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. And you'd be amazed how many "British people" would gladly give up their state of being British in favour of only being English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. Scotland and Wales did the first step by voting for their own government a few years back.

So in my opinion Britishness is a made-up word to give the idea of a strong unity, which actually is not as strong in people's minds as it's supposed to be. So the people of Europe might not see themselves as European, but in the very same breath, many people of Britain who should consider themselves British do not consider themself British because their individual nationality is much more important to them.

That´s quite hard to answer, but I´ll have a try! I reckon that she will be excluded from Britishness, as she doesn´t think of herself as a British. But she won´t be exluded from multiculturalism, since multiculturalism is just the coexistance of different ethnic groups in one country. You`re absolutely right!

True, she'd be excluded from Britishness but she'd still be part of multiculturalism. However, your definition of multiculturalism as the coexistence of different ethnic groups is incorrect. In multiculturalism we do not talk about ethnic groups but of ethnic cultures. Hence the word multiculturalism . Multiculturalism promotes the acceptance of different ethnic cultures in a country, to avoid nationalism. So the goal of multiculturalism is the melting down of different cultures into one multiculture.

Once again sorry for being such a nitpicker!

Kind regards,
Keswick

[kevin123]

So basically Britishness is similar to "Europeaness". Actually it doesn´t exist, both Europeans and Britans are forced by the governments to think of themselves as Europeans or Britains, although they´re proud to be - for instance - a Danish or Welsh. That means the basic nationality is for many Britains and Europeans more important than the Europeaness or Britishness, which they have to accept due to governmental agreement.

True, she'd be excluded from Britishness but she'd still be part of multiculturalism. However, your definition of multiculturalism as the coexistence of different ethnic groups is incorrect. In multiculturalism we do not talk about ethnic groups but of ethnic cultures. Hence the word multiculturalism . Multiculturalism promotes the acceptance of different ethnic cultures in a country, to avoid nationalism. So the goal of multiculturalism is the melting down of different cultures into one multiculture.

That makes sense!!! But isn´t it the goal of Britishness or "Europeaness" to create one culture - "the melting down of different cultures into one culture"!
So what is the differnce between Britishness and multiculturalism?

[Keswick]

So basically Britishness is similar to "Europeaness".

Exactely!

Actually it doesn´t exist, both Europeans and Britans are forced by the governments to think of themselves as Europeans or Britains, although they´re proud to be - for instance - a Danish or Welsh. That means the basic nationality is for many Britains and Europeans more important than the Europeaness or Britishness, which they have to accept due to governmental agreement.

Also correct!

That makes sense!!! But isn´t it the goal of Britishness or "Europeaness" to create one culture - "the melting down of different cultures into one culture"!
So what is the differnce between Britishness and multiculturalism?

Without wanting to go into too much detail, the culture of a person is part of their identity. Multiculturalism is a not achievable goal (although the idea sounds good) because in order to melt different cultures into one big culture you have to melt identities and that's not possible! Every individual on this planet has their own cultural identity which defines us. This identity is formed by basic aspects such as language (just to give you one example). We all speak German, but we all speak dialects which from a scientific point of view are versions of the German languages that identifies us as Bavarians, Saxons, Swabians, etc. If we look at Bavaria as such: how many different dialects are spoken there? Just to name a few big ones: General Bavarian, Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian, Franconian.. so Bavaria as well is differentiated into region, those regions can furthermore be differentiated into local areas, such as Main Franconian, Lower Franconian, Upper Franconian etc. A person from Wuerzburg speaks different to a person from Karlstadt (which is only about 15 miles away) and my neighbour speaks different to me. You see, language alone can be reduced down to one family. And it is the same with all other aspects of culture, such as literature, history, religion, art, science, economy, law etc. Some of these aspects could be assimilated into one common religion, one common economy and one common law. Do you understand this so far? But when looking at history, religion, art, achievements of science. you can share all these things but you can't melt them down into one pot. Every group (for example a country) has its own history. Certain groups have their own art, science and religion. Do you understand?

So in order do achieve the Britishness people are so fond of they have to make everybody speak English.. fair enough, that's easily done. Everybody's official language is English.. but as soon as I go home and talk to my child in German, I bring a foreign language into this melting pot which makes me "Non-British" for everybody to hear.

It is also easy to regulate one economy, one law but who makes the rules of deciding which kind of art is going to be the art of this newly born Britishness? Which religion is the religion of this Britishness? Which history (and that's probably the most complicated aspect) will be the base of this Britishness? Cultures can live with each other, accept each other and enrich each other, but they can't be melted into one culture. For many reasons.

Kevin, can I ask you something? Do you drink tea with milk? I do.. therefore a tiny part of my culture might be different from yours. I can accept that you drink your tea without milk and I can admire it, but how would the melting down work? Do we force people to all have tea with milk or do we force people to not have tea with milk?

Don't get me wrong, cultures can merge. I have absorbed many little quirks of the British culture and my husband has absorbed many little quirks of the German culture.. we merged. Because we wanted to. And it works. We still kept our identity. He is English to the bone. I am German. I don't feel British, nor does my husband. But our cultures merged in some aspects.

But as soon as a government decides "we are now one happy British family, we share the same culture and we now call it Britishness" it is a force.. and you can't force cultures to melt. This will unavoidably lead to conflict. That is why (in my opinion) the idea of a Britishness, Europeaness or the idea of multiculturalism - although it sounds very appealing - does not work.




Uuuuh.. Kevin you got me started on something there .

[kevin123]

All right, Keswick! Thank you very much!

[Keswick]

You're quite welcome!

[caro64]

I think you might have scared him Keswick but quite right you are

[Keswick]

Oups!! I did not intend to scare him!

[kevin123]

Keswick, you didn´t scare me!

Look at this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/galleryguide/ ... 78,00.html

In the following I´ll discuss, whether the Union Flag by David Cohen is likely to become the official flag of the UK:
Whether you like or not, cultural diversity exist in Britain. Furthermore the so-called Britishness - the meld down of different cultures to one - is a goal of Britain´s government. That means the inhabitains of the UK are forced to to think of themselves as British, although they rather feel - for instance - as a Welsh or as a African. Looking at the current Union Flag, you´ll find out that only the core cultures are represented. This fact doesn´t suit to the government´s idea of Britishness. So why don´t Uk´s inhabitans have the right to vote on a new design?
However, it´s quite unusal that a country changes its flag. Firthermore, Cohen´s redesign seems to be a bit rediculos, as it´s quite colorful. One aspect that has to be considered, furthermore, is that all of Britain´s colonies declared their independence. Hence they aren´t part of the UK anymore. All in all, I believe Cohen´s redesign is a good idea but I reckon that it won´t become the official flag of the UK.

What´s your opinion?

[Keswick]

Keswick, you didn´t scare me!

Look at this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/galleryguide/ ... 78,00.html

In the following I´ll discuss, whether the Union Flag by David Cohen is likely to become the official flag of the UK:
Whether you like or not, cultural diversity exist in Britain. Furthermore the so-called Britishness - the melt down of different cultures to one - is a goal of Britain´s government. That means the inhabitans of the UK are forced to to think of themselves as British, although they rather feel - for instance - as a Welsh or as a African. Looking at the current Union Flag, you´ll find out that only the core cultures are represented. This fact doesn´t suit to the government´s idea of Britishness. So why don´t UK´s inhabitans have the right to vote on a new design?
However, it´s quite unusal that a country changes its flag. Furthermore, Cohen´s redesign seems to be a bit ridiculos, as it´s quite colorful. One aspect that has to be considered, furthermore, is that all of Britain´s colonies declared their independence. Hence they aren´t part of the UK anymore. All in all, I believe Cohen´s redesign is a good idea but I reckon that it won´t become the official flag of the UK.

What´s your opinion?

I think the idea to redesign the Union Flag is a ridiculous attempt to enforce something that will not work. And believe me when I say: the people of the United Kingdom will not accept this. Great Britain does not even accept they EU although the LibDems want it, so do you really think they accept a new flag? Do you really think the proud English will give up their beloved St. George's cross? Or the Scots will give up their St. Andrew's cross? Not a chance!

When are we going to redesign the flag of Germany? France? Italy? Spain? Are we going to put a little bit of every nationality that is currently living in a country into the country's flag?

People like that really lack a proper insight into society.. maybe that would put them back on this planet.