Greetings from a new member

Write something about yourself (who you are and where you come from).
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Angeli555
Tongue Twister
Beiträge: 25
Registriert: 31. Dez 2019 12:26
Muttersprache: German

Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Angeli555 »

Hi together,

I'm German, probably a lot older than the most other members of this forum (don't ask a lady about her age :mrgreen: ), and I've been studying English for years now (with the help of books, audio CDs, online courses etc.). Firstly because I really love this language (especially the American way of expression) and secondly because I need it for my job. 
It is always said that English is an easy language. However, the more you immerse yourself in this language, the more complicated it seems to become. At least for me. And whenever I think I am slowly getting closer to my goal of mastering English almost perfectly, I find that I'm still a long way from it.  :roll:
So I can never get enough help if I have questions about an English topic that I don't quite understand yet. It's not easy to learn a foreign language on your own, especially if you would like to speak it like a native speaker. And I hope there are a lot of helpful people in this forum who enjoy helping each other. 
In this sense, a good community and a happy new year 2020!  :prost: 

Angeli
LG Angeli,
and many thanks for every little correction that helps me improve my English!




Angeli555
Tongue Twister
Beiträge: 25
Registriert: 31. Dez 2019 12:26
Muttersprache: German

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Angeli555 »

By the way, I think "a good community" was not enough here. Is "for a good community" right if I want to express that hopefully we'll have a good community?
LG Angeli,
and many thanks for every little correction that helps me improve my English!

tiorthan
Lingo Whiz
Beiträge: 2441
Registriert: 13. Jun 2010 01:36
Muttersprache: de, (pl)

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von tiorthan »

Hi,
Well, at 555 you must be older than anyone else here ;). But otherwise the more active writers are usually more mature. Most of the younger people probably just drop in for a question or two and then leave again.
It is always said that English is an easy language.
Well, if you goal is to just be able to speak English sufficiently to be able to communicate with people it is a comparatively easy language because its basic structure is simple.

But I get what you mean. English is taught in a slightly weird way because of some renaissance grammarians who invented most of the grammar terminology we use in teaching English today. Those things don't actually match the natural structure of the language but they are useful shortcuts when you start learning. However, if you want to master the language, as is your stated goal, then the things you learn in the beginning can start to get in the way since you never consciously developed that natural feeling for the language, that always remains an accident.
And I hope there are a lot of helpful people in this forum who enjoy helping each other.
Not a lot of regulars unfortunately which isn't really surprising though. Most people who come here are looking for some particular text like homework or lyrics or abstracts and such. They don't usually stick around long. Far fewer are here for a long time asking questions as they are learning the language. Most of the time they are adults because children often can't be bothered to give a damn about learning languages. But there are a handful of people here who enjoy helping others.

So, on to the small corrections. Actually two larger ones because I don't have time to think through the whole text.
Hi together,
This is something very German. In English you'd say "Hi everyone" or even more informally "Hi y'all".

As to the final line, I wouldn't use "for". This sounds a lot like a toast or something along those lines so it seems more appropriate to use "to" which is also the preposition used in a toast. But I'm not quite certain what you mean by "good community", i.e. what expectations you're trying to express by that and if community is really the word to use here.
You're never too old to learn something stupid.
MistakeSuggestionYou sure that's right?

Angeli555
Tongue Twister
Beiträge: 25
Registriert: 31. Dez 2019 12:26
Muttersprache: German

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Angeli555 »

Hi tiorthan!

Thanks for your kind and helpful reply. :)
But otherwise the more active writers are usually more mature. Most of the younger people probably just drop in for a question or two and then leave again.
I've already noticed that in the meantime, but it feels good to know that there are other mature people here too. So I don't have to be ashamed with my 555.  :mrgreen:
However, if you want to master the language, as is your stated goal, then the things you learn in the beginning can start to get in the way since you never consciously developed that natural feeling for the language, that always remains an accident.
Yes, that's why I started to study more with textbooks and audios that were created by native speakers and deal with natural everyday English rather than stubborn grammar. Nevertheless, my grammar skills help me with understanding (regarding the usage of tenses etc.), of course.
But there are a handful of people here who enjoy helping others.
That's good to hear. 
This is something very German. In English you'd say "Hi everyone" or even more informally "Hi y'all".
Oh, good to know as well. I know I'm still thinking too German. Thanks!
As to the final line, I wouldn't use "for". This sounds a lot like a toast or something along those lines so it seems more appropriate to use "to" which is also the preposition used in a toast. But I'm not quite certain what you mean by "good community", i.e. what expectations you're trying to express by that and if community is really the word to use here.
Ich wollte zum Ausdruck bringen, dass ich auf eine gute Gemeinschaft, mit anderen Worten, einen netten, hilfreichen Austausch im Forum hoffe. Wie würdest du es zum Ausdruck bringen? Sometimes I think too complicated and sometimes too simple!
LG Angeli,
and many thanks for every little correction that helps me improve my English!

tiorthan
Lingo Whiz
Beiträge: 2441
Registriert: 13. Jun 2010 01:36
Muttersprache: de, (pl)

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von tiorthan »

Yes, that's why I started to study more with textbooks and audios that were created by native speakers and deal with natural everyday English rather than stubborn grammar. Nevertheless, my grammar skills help me with understanding (regarding the usage of tenses etc.), of course.
It is true that grammar knowledge helps you understand English. What I was trying to say is that it is actually the wrong grammar.

Now that I've confused you let me try to explain.

When the Renaissance language philosophers tried to analyze modern languages they did so through the lens of Latin and Old Greek because they believed that before the biblical Babel incident when God confused the languages of people everyone spoke the same perfect divine language and ever since Babel all the languages had deteriorated. So to them older languages meant that they had to be better. So when they analyzed English for example they thought something along the lines of, Latin has this feature let us find out how English does the same thing.

This worked, after a fashion. Mostly because linguistics before the 20th century was mainly prescriptive, meaning they told others how to speak. They could just say everything that native speakers do that doesn't follow the rules they just told you is them making mistakes.

As a language learner you want to be told how to speak, so that's fine. It also turns out that using Latin was a happy accident. Latin encodes so much information in its grammar, that when you learn English through this Latinesque grammar you get a working language. It's not actually the same as a native speaker's English but it is never wrong and it is close enough to be useful to understand basically everything that is written, it's just not always the most natural way of expressing things. It puts you on a starting point from which your brain can figure out how spoken English works.

But when you are trying to analyze how native speakers actually use the language this type of grammar seems to sprout exceptions like pimples on a teenager.

Linguists really noticed that when they concerned themselves more with how people really learn languages. Now they were forced to analyze that everyday English and find the structures and they found that they really needed a completely different type of grammar, one that reflects the true inner workings of the language and how the human brain of a native speaker would, likely, analyze a phrase.

So what I am really trying to say is that when you really want to try and learn to speak like a native speaker I'm not saying that you shouldn't use what you've learned when you need it, far from it. It's a myth that children learn faster than adults. They don't. They are just better at learning things by exploration. Adults can actually learn almost everything faster than children but we need a structure to guide us. You have that structure within the grammar you've learned. I would estimate that you are in a place in your learning where you should try to leave this grammar behind. Not by ditching it but by using it as the guide to find the places where it doesn't help you anymore. That's the place where I would suggest you learn these things like you learn vocabulary. Don't question the grammar, just accept that's how it is said. Over time you will come across something similar and you will recognize it again and at some point you'll just understand it without thinking about it.

Of course, I'm also happy to explain the internals of the English language and how there aren't really any tenses and why there is no gerund and how English has no clear distinction between parts of speech and so on. I've done this before and sometimes it helps but often it's just because I like to think about these things and analyze them.
Ich wollte zum Ausdruck bringen, dass ich auf eine gute Gemeinschaft, mit anderen Worten, einen netten, hilfreichen Austausch im Forum hoffe. Wie würdest du es zum Ausdruck bringen? Sometimes I think too complicated and sometimes too simple!
I'm afraid I cannot really help you in this case. I would say "to good collaboration" but that's just the English expression of the pragmatics I'm able to extract from "einen netten, hilfreichen Austausch im Forum". However, in my experience "nett und freundlich" usually extends beyond pragmatics when used by neurotypical people, so I would expect that you mean something less socially distanced than "collaboration". So ... uhm ... help? Someone?
You're never too old to learn something stupid.
MistakeSuggestionYou sure that's right?

Duckduck
Anglo Master
Beiträge: 3483
Registriert: 1. Okt 2009 14:25
Muttersprache: Deutsch

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Duckduck »

tiorthan hat geschrieben:Ich wollte zum Ausdruck bringen, dass ich auf eine gute Gemeinschaft, mit anderen Worten, einen netten, hilfreichen Austausch im Forum hoffe. Wie würdest du es zum Ausdruck bringen? Sometimes I think too complicated and sometimes too simple!

I'm afraid I cannot really help you in this case. I would say "to good collaboration" but that's just the English expression of the pragmatics I'm able to extract from "einen netten, hilfreichen Austausch im Forum". However, in my experience "nett und freundlich" usually extends beyond pragmatics when used by neurotypical people, so I would expect that you mean something less socially distanced than "collaboration". So ... uhm ... help? Someone?
Hi Angeli und tiorthan, schönes und frohes neues Jahr! :big_thumb: 

Wie wäre es mit "pleasant/happy/creative/inspiring/enjoyable teamwork" ?

Grüße von einer auch deutlich im Mittelalter herumschwimmenden Entente i.e.
Duckduck :chief:
Mein Farbcode für Korrekturen:
Fehler / Stil/Ausdruck / Anmerkung

Angeli555
Tongue Twister
Beiträge: 25
Registriert: 31. Dez 2019 12:26
Muttersprache: German

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Angeli555 »

Hi Duckduck,

du bist ja witzig. Das gefällt mir!  :big_thumb:

Vielen Dank und dir, tiorthan und allen anderen natürlich auch von mir noch ein frohes und erfolgreiches neues Jahr!
Wie wäre es mit "pleasant/happy/creative/inspiring/enjoyable teamwork" ?
That's a really good idea! Thanks. Auf die Idee hätte ich im Grunde auch selbst kommen können. Aber ich dachte in meiner Naivität allen Ernstes, man könne in dem Fall auch einfach so etwas wie "on/for/to a good community" sagen. Das ist es jedenfalls, was ich meinte: Die Lernerei scheint einfach kein Ende zu nehmen. Jetzt lerne ich - vom früheren Schulenglisch abgesehen - schon seit ein paar Jahren Englisch und das wirklich nicht wenig, und dennoch scheine ich von meinem Ziel noch weit entfernt zu sein. Umso schöner, dass es solch ein Forum gibt, in dem man auch mal nachfragen kann, und nette Leute, die gerne auch mal weiterhelfen. :)

@tiorthan
Since I have very little time, I'm going to deal with your interesting and for me somewhat more demanding text a little later. So please don't think I will ignore it if it takes a few days.

Viele Grüße,
Angeli 
LG Angeli,
and many thanks for every little correction that helps me improve my English!

Angeli555
Tongue Twister
Beiträge: 25
Registriert: 31. Dez 2019 12:26
Muttersprache: German

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Angeli555 »

Hi tiorthan,

I didn't just want to skim your message and reply quickly, which is why I am (among other things) only now reply. I take every opportunity to delve deeper into English, especially when I notice that it challenges me a bit.
they believed that before the biblical Babel incident when God confused the languages of people everyone spoke the same perfect divine language
Das war bestimmt  :angel:isch (English). That's why I love this language that much.  :mrgreen:
This worked, after a fashion.
In some cases I'm still using Google Translate for my safety. Can you actually translate this sentence with "Das funktionierte auf eine Art und Weise"?
It's not actually the same as a native speaker's English but it is never wrong and it is close enough to be useful to understand basically everything that is written, it's just not always the most natural way of expressing things. It puts you on a starting point from which your brain can figure out how spoken English works. But when you are trying to analyze how native speakers actually use the language this type of grammar seems to sprout exceptions like pimples on a teenager.
Yeah, that's right. Ha ha.
I would estimate that you are in a place in your learning where you should try to leave this grammar behind. Not by ditching it but by using it as the guide to find the places where it doesn't help you anymore. That's the place where I would suggest you learn these things like you learn vocabulary. Don't question the grammar, just accept that's how it is said. Over time you will come across something similar and you will recognize it again and at some point you'll just understand it without thinking about it.
Yes, that's what I'm doing already, at least on the whole. But thanks for your suggestion!
Of course, I'm also happy to explain the internals of the English language and how there aren't really any tenses and why there is no gerund and how English has no clear distinction between parts of speech and so on.
Hey, don't make my brain jelly.  :uppy: 
I'm afraid I cannot really help you in this case. I would say "to good collaboration" but that's just the English expression of the pragmatics I'm able to extract from "einen netten, hilfreichen Austausch im Forum". However, in my experience "nett und freundlich" usually extends beyond pragmatics when used by neurotypical people, so I would expect that you mean something less socially distanced than "collaboration".
Yes, you are correct. I meant it as I said it. And your answer was quite interesting also in terms of historical matters, in some points a little challenging in terms of my knowledge of English, and therefore helpful. So thank you very much for the effort you put in! 

LG, Angeli
LG Angeli,
and many thanks for every little correction that helps me improve my English!

tiorthan
Lingo Whiz
Beiträge: 2441
Registriert: 13. Jun 2010 01:36
Muttersprache: de, (pl)

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von tiorthan »

Angeli555 hat geschrieben:which is why I am (among other things) only now reply.
Small mistake here. I'm not going to correct this right now because I think you didn't do that on purpose.
This worked, after a fashion.
In some cases I'm still using Google Translate for my safety. Can you actually translate this sentence with "Das funktionierte auf eine Art und Weise"?
Well, kind of. I'm going to cite the dictionary here, because they can express this much better than I can (that's what they're paid for after all):

after/in a fashion, in some manner or other or to some extent; in a makeshift, unskillful, or unsatisfactory way

If I had to translate myself I'd say something along the lines of:

"Das funktionierte so halbwegs."
You're never too old to learn something stupid.
MistakeSuggestionYou sure that's right?

Angeli555
Tongue Twister
Beiträge: 25
Registriert: 31. Dez 2019 12:26
Muttersprache: German

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Angeli555 »

tiorthan hat geschrieben:
Angeli555 hat geschrieben:which is why I am (among other things) only now reply.
Small mistake here. I'm not going to correct this right now because I think you didn't do that on purpose.
No, you're right, I didn't do that on purpose. I wanted to write "now", of course, at the end of the sentence, but thanks for the hint. Or is there still a mistake that I'm not aware of?

after/in a fashion, in some manner or other or to some extent; in a makeshift, unskillful, or unsatisfactory way

If I had to translate myself I'd say something along the lines of:

"Das funktionierte so halbwegs."
Always good to learn something new, so thanks a lot!

Hmm ... I think my English is good after a fashion. Und nach der neusten Mode bestimmt auch.   :D
LG Angeli,
and many thanks for every little correction that helps me improve my English!

Duckduck
Anglo Master
Beiträge: 3483
Registriert: 1. Okt 2009 14:25
Muttersprache: Deutsch

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Duckduck »

Angeli555 hat geschrieben:Angeli555:which is (among other things) why I am only now reply.
tiorthan hat geschrieben:Small mistake here. I'm not going to correct this right now because I think you didn't do that on purpose.
No, you're right, I didn't do that on purpose. I wanted to write "now", of course, at the end of the sentence, but thanks for the hint. Or is there still a mistake that I'm not aware of?

I think tiorthan was actually referring to the above...
Duckduck :prost:
Mein Farbcode für Korrekturen:
Fehler / Stil/Ausdruck / Anmerkung

Angeli555
Tongue Twister
Beiträge: 25
Registriert: 31. Dez 2019 12:26
Muttersprache: German

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Angeli555 »

Duckduck hat geschrieben:
Angeli555 hat geschrieben:Angeli555:which is (among other things) why I am only now reply.
tiorthan hat geschrieben:Small mistake here. I'm not going to correct this right now because I think you didn't do that on purpose.
No, you're right, I didn't do that on purpose. I wanted to write "now", of course, at the end of the sentence, but thanks for the hint. Or is there still a mistake that I'm not aware of?

I think tiorthan was actually referring to the above...
Duckduck :prost:
Ahahahaha ... das nennt man Tomaten auf den Augen. Frag mich nicht, wie das "am" dahin gekommen ist. Das ist mir weder beim Schreiben des Satzes bewusst geworden noch beim Überprüfen nach tiorthans Hinweis. Because of my lack of time I'm sometimes a bit absentminded. Ich dachte, das "now" wäre an dieser Stelle deplatziert, weshalb ich auch nur darauf geachtet habe. Sorry! Deshalb auf jeden Fall danke für den Hinweis, Duckduck, auf dass etwaige Mitleser nicht noch meine Fehler übernehmen. 
 
  :prost:

"Warum ich bin erst jetzt antworten"    :mrgreen:
"only now reply" war eigentlich auch ein Versehen. Wie ich anhand deiner Korrektur jetzt sehe, kann das "now" aber wohl auch an diese Stelle gesetzt werden. Gut zu wissen. Aber könnte das "I" denn im Prinzip nicht auch vor der Klammer stehen bleiben?

LG,  :angel:i
LG Angeli,
and many thanks for every little correction that helps me improve my English!

tiorthan
Lingo Whiz
Beiträge: 2441
Registriert: 13. Jun 2010 01:36
Muttersprache: de, (pl)

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von tiorthan »

Yep that's it.
By the way it would have been appropriate to use a present continuous like "why I am replying only now". The present continuous can be used as a "pure present" something that is being done right now and not at any other time. That would fit the expressed sentiment quite nicely.

A simple non-past statement works as well but seems ... hm ... I would almost say less human.
Aber könnte das "I" denn im Prinzip nicht auch vor der Klammer stehen bleiben?
So that would be "... why I among other things only now reply". So let's see how an English speaker would read that:

why = conjunction (conj)
I = noun phrase (NP)
among other things = preposition + noun phrase (pp+NP)
only now = adverbial (AD)
reply = verb (V)

Now, one peculiar thing about English is that word order is among the most important features of English grammar. And the Subject - Predicate - Object order is the most important one in English that is almost never violated.

But this sentence has the form: conj - NP - pp+NP - AD - V

The adverbial and the verb can both be part of the predicate, and they are. But whatever comes before the predicate must be the subject. So "I among other things" would be read as the subject and as one phrase which would be rather weird.
You're never too old to learn something stupid.
MistakeSuggestionYou sure that's right?

Angeli555
Tongue Twister
Beiträge: 25
Registriert: 31. Dez 2019 12:26
Muttersprache: German

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von Angeli555 »

tiorthan hat geschrieben:By the way it would have been appropriate to use a present continuous like "why I am replying only now".

Ich finde das mit der Zitierfunktion hier wirklich ein wenig umständlich, weshalb ich jetzt einfach mal auf diese Weise antworte. Meine Güte, ich bin gerade echt ein bisschen schockiert, was für dumme Fehler ich allein in diesem kurzen Satz gemacht habe, obwohl ich es besser hätte wissen müssen und du und Duckduck mich sogar schon zweimal auf diesen Satz hingewiesen habt.  :shock:  Und wäre ich konzentrierter bei der Sache gewesen, hätte ich sicherlich auch geschrieben "I am replying now". Ich vermute mal, dass genau deswegen auch das "am" im Satz gelandet war. Tut mir wirklich leid, wenn ich euch mit solchen unnötigen Fehlern eure kostbare Zeit geraubt habe. Ich werde künftig erst schreiben/antworten, wenn ich wirklich genügend Zeit und Muße habe, auch wenn sich meine Antworten dann ein wenig länger hinziehen können.

The present continuous can be used as a "pure present" something that is being done right now and not at any other time. That would fit the expressed sentiment quite nicely.

Ja, ich weiß, vielen Dank.
Now, one peculiar thing about English is that word order is among the most important features of English grammar. And the Subject - Predicate - Object order is the most important one in English that is almost never violated.

Auch das weiß ich im Grunde. Das Problem ist nur, dass ich solche Dinge schon immer ganz gerne ausgeblendet habe. Bedauerlicherweise.

The adverbial and the verb can both be part of the predicate, and they are. But whatever comes before the predicate must be the subject. So "I among other things" would be read as the subject and as one phrase which would be rather weird.

Okay, so the separation by the brackets doesn't make any difference? 
LG, Angeli
LG Angeli,
and many thanks for every little correction that helps me improve my English!

tiorthan
Lingo Whiz
Beiträge: 2441
Registriert: 13. Jun 2010 01:36
Muttersprache: de, (pl)

Re: Greetings from a new member

Beitrag von tiorthan »

Okay, so the separation by the brackets doesn't make any difference?
It does make a difference but for whatever you put in parentheses to make sense it is interpreted as if it occurred at that very position.
You're never too old to learn something stupid.
MistakeSuggestionYou sure that's right?

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