seeking help determining referent of "dieselben" in a sentence

[edmont]

Not clear on the referent of "dieselben" below --

Wenn Se. Majestät darauf bestehen, das gesamte Heer nach dem Osten zu führen, so würden dieselben kein schlagfertiges Heer, sondern einen wüsten Haufen ungeordneter bewaffneter Menschen ohne Verpflegung haben.

My guess is that dieselben refers to "Heer" -- But then the sentence would say

"If his Majesty insists on leading the whole army to the East, then the same [the army] would have no battle-ready army, but a wild bunch of disordered, armed men without food."

Can the German language say, "the army would have no battle-ready army"? Can it use "haben" that way?

Thank you for any assistance.

[tiorthan]

It's a trap!

No, it's probably refering to "Se. Majestät" and a bit of old fashioned grammar that nobody uses anymore. I'm saying "probably" because this was used slightly differently in different regions of Germany, so I may be wrong.

[Duckduck]

Hi,

I think tiorthan is right, well, I'm actually sure he is and Wikipedia knows why:

"Darüber hinaus war es – insbesondere im offiziellen Schriftverkehr – üblich, die Pronomen er und sie in Bezug auf einen König/Kaiser bzw. eine Königin/Kaiserin zu vermeiden. Stattdessen wurden die Pronomen Allerhöchstdieselben bzw. Allerhöchstdieselbe verwendet."

Obviously, Moltke was very upset about Wilhelm's plan and dropped the "allerhöchst" in his fury...

Duckduck

[edmont]

Thank you tiorthan and Duckduck! Wonderful help.