trying to figure out a pronoun's antecedent

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edmont
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trying to figure out a pronoun's antecedent

Beitrag von edmont »

Hi, here's a sentence I'm struggling with:

Die Unterredung mit ihm dürfte Ende Januar 1918 stattgefunden haben und wurde wahrscheinlich vermittelt durch Oberst Hans von Haeften, dem Leiter der "Militärischen Stelle" des Auswärtigen Amtes und früheren Adjutanten des deutschen Generalstabschefs Helmuth von Moltke, den Steiner durch private Kontakte zur Familie Moltke kannte.

The question is about "den" in "den Steiner durch private Kontakte zur Familie Moltke kannte."

Not clear to me if "den" refers to Helmuth von Moltke, the immediate antecedent, or if "den" refers to the whole preceding phrase, and therefore not to Moltke, but to Hans von Haeften. Is there some rule that tells me "den" MUST be referring to Helmuth von Moltke, not von Haeften? Or vice versa? Or is the German sentence just unclearly written?

(Steiner could have known both von Moltke and von Haeften through private contact with the von Moltke family -- Steiner seems to have met von Moltke through von Moltke's wife.)

Thank you very much for any assistance.




tiorthan
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Re: trying to figure out a pronoun's antecedent

Beitrag von tiorthan »

It's most likely Hans von Haeften.
Grammatically it could be both, but since Helmuth von Moltke is already used in a subordinate clause it would be considered very bad style indeed.
Unlike English, which most of the time expects references to be to the antecedent, German typically works with references to a topic. And then someone subvert this expectation and misunderstandings happen.
You're never too old to learn something stupid.
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edmont
Story Teller
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Re: trying to figure out a pronoun's antecedent

Beitrag von edmont »

tiorthan, thank you again.

So grammatically it could be either -- but it's bad style if Moltke is meant.

Let me ask this. If grammatically it could be either, is that not already not good style, even if the writer meant Haeften?

My sense is that in English it would be bad style to have a sentence in that form, where there is a bit of unnecessary ambiguity obscuring the immediate clarity of the prose. But perhaps for a native German the sentence is actually not ambiguous? Yet your reply, "It's most likely Hans von Haeften" suggests to me the sentence is unnecessarily at least a bit ambiguous. 

Thank you again. To be able to get this kind of assistance is really fantastic.

tiorthan
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Re: trying to figure out a pronoun's antecedent

Beitrag von tiorthan »

edmont hat geschrieben:Let me ask this. If grammatically it could be either, is that not already not good style, even if the writer meant Haeften?
Not really. The expectations in German are a bit different. As long as the writer conforms with reader expectations this is still fine.

I wrote "most likely" but "with near certainty" would have been closer to the truth because that's what we expect here.
You're never too old to learn something stupid.
MistakeSuggestionYou sure that's right?

edmont
Story Teller
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Registriert: 7. Nov 2016 14:44
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Re: trying to figure out a pronoun's antecedent

Beitrag von edmont »

Tiorthan, thank you for the clarifications.

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