Help with translating a phrase

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edmont
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Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von edmont »

Hi,
I'm reading a German book and having a bit of trouble with a sentence:
Mit dem Krieg, mit dem Sieg wird gerechnet wie mit Zahlen.
The sentence is in this paragraph:
"Von allen Menschen hat man den Eindruck, als hinge ihnen die Zunge zum Halse heraus, wie übernächtigt, abgehetzt, ruhelos sucht jeder in seinem Ressort oder Ressörtchen das All. Für Gedanken -- keine Zeit! Von Ideen -- keine Spur! Mit dem Krieg, mit dem Sieg wird gerechnet wie mit Zahlen. Um sich Mut zu machen, fragt man die Militärs. Die träumen nur: Sieg -- Sieg -- Sieg!"
If anyone can help me with suggestions for that sentence, that would be great.




edmont
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von edmont »

Addendum: a bit of context for that paragraph.  It was written by a minister to the court of Bavaria in 1917 during World War I.  He was describing his impression of the frantic helplessness of government officials inside the Bavarian consulate in Berlin.

Keswick
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von Keswick »

Hi edmont,

This sentence means that they anticipated war, but moreover they anticipated to win this war.

"mit etwas rechnen" means to anticipate/to expect, however in this sentence they added "mit Zahlen" (with numbers) probably to stress that war and its expected victory is based on calculatio.

Literally translated your sentence would be: They anticipate (calculate) war, (moreover) the victory (of this war) like they do with numbers.

Does that make sense?

Kind regards,
Keswick
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edmont
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von edmont »

Keswick,
Thank you.  That is roughly what I thought it meant.  I translated it thus: 

"With the war, they counted on victory as if counting numbers."

In other words, they thought victory in the future was as reliable as simple mathematical calculations (as secure as 2 + 2 = 4).  The sentence seems to mean their view of the war was naively overconfident and simple. Would that be a correct understanding of the sentence?

However, based on what you said, I must change my translation so it no longer starts "With the war," and instead says: "They counted on the war, and on victory, as if they were counting numbers." 

To say "mit dem Krieg wird gerechnet" in this case I suppose does not exactly mean they expected/anticipated the war -- after all, the war had already been going on for over two years. I think "mit dem Krieg wird gerechnet" in the sentence probably means they relied on the war, counted on the war, as the solution for Germany's social and international difficulties -- specifically they counted on the war being won by Germany and thus solving Germany's difficulties at the time. What do you think?

edmont
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von edmont »

Or could the sentence mean something very different, like:
"They calculate war, and victory, in terms of numbers [of soldiers, weapons, supplies, etc.]." 
In other words, they are thinking about the war only in a quantitative way, with no broader social or international questions involved.

Keswick
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von Keswick »

Hi edmont,

The sentence could indeed mean that they actively calculated war and victory in a quantitative way, however from the snippet of text above, I can't really tell. Reading the rest of the text, would you say that the quantitative calculation of war and victory is a possible translation?
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edmont
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von edmont »

Keswick, yes, I think the context allows that that could be the meaning -- hmmm. 
Thank you for discussing this with me.  A difficult conundrum.

edmont
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von edmont »

Keswick (and others), so do you think there are two possible translations:

1. They counted on the war, and on victory, as if they were counting numbers. [In other words, they thought victory was as certain and obvious as the fact that 2+2=4.  They had a simplistic view (not necessarily a quantitative one).]

2. They calculated war, and victory, in terms of numbers. [They looked only at the quantitative aspect of winning.]
Thanks for any thoughts.

tiorthan
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von tiorthan »

The text is talking about WWI so I woud use something based on the second translation, the first doesn't quite work in that context. WWI was in may ways the most bizarre and dehumanized war of all times and it was, indeed treated as numbers by the government (by all participitaing governments, actually).
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edmont
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von edmont »

tiorthan, thank you for your reply.
You are a native German speaker, and yet you turn to history to decide between the two translations. I guess that means both translations #1 and #2 are equally possible if one is considering language alone?
"Von allen Menschen hat man den Eindruck, als hinge ihnen die Zunge zum Halse heraus, wie übernächtigt, abgehetzt, ruhelos sucht jeder in seinem Ressort oder Ressörtchen das All. Für Gedanken -- keine Zeit! Von Ideen -- keine Spur! Mit dem Krieg, mit dem Sieg wird gerechnet wie mit Zahlen. Um sich Mut zu machen, fragt man die Militärs. Die träumen nur: Sieg -- Sieg -- Sieg!"
Come to think of it though, even if we forget about history for a moment, and just look at the surrounding sentences (in dark red text) #1 translation perhaps makes less sense than #2 translation. The officials are described as rather desperate -- tongues hanging out of mouths, exhausted, in need of courage -- with that background, perhaps it does not make sense to translate the bold sentence as I did in #1 -- #1 suggests overconfidence -- as though winning were as straightforward and guaranteed as simple numerical calculations.  #2 makes more sense I guess, because it does not suggest overconfidence -- it suggests only that they relied only on quantitative calculations.  That makes sense of what the writer says about how they were all looking in their little departments and sub-departments for the All.  In other words, they only had specialized, quantitative ideas, no more comprehensive view. #2 translation also fits better with their tongues handing out of their mouths, their desperation, their lack of any ideas. 
Thank you for any comments.

tiorthan
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von tiorthan »

edmont hat geschrieben: I guess that means both translations #1 and #2 are equally possible if one is considering language alone?
Not for me. It's a lot more complicated than that.

"Mit dem Krieg, mit dem Sieg wird gerechnet" can mean either "War and subsequent victory are expected" or "They do calculations with war and victory". In fact, up to this point the former interpretation is more likely.

But then "wie mit Zahlen" follows. For me, that only leaves the second interpretation because only calculations make sense with numbers.

However, it is a fact that every one of the larger nations in Europe expected the war, they even wanted it to happen as much as they would deny it later. And they all expected to win, or rather nobody thought they could lose, which is a bit naive. The author must have known that, and I'm sure that's why he chose to phrase it like that, to express one thing while hinting at another.
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edmont
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von edmont »

Thank you, tiorthan.
Mit dem Krieg, mit dem Sieg wird gerechnet wie mit Zahlen.

They do calculations with war and victory (as with numbers?)

If the part preceding "wie mit Zahlen" means "They do calculations with war and victory," why is "wie mit Zahlen" added?  And why "wie" -- does not "wie" suggest that a comparison or metaphor is being made, rather than a literal statement?

Thanks very much for your help.

tiorthan
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von tiorthan »

edmont hat geschrieben: If the part preceding "wie mit Zahlen" means "They do calculations with war and victory," why is "wie mit Zahlen" added?
"They do calculations with war and victory" is only one possible translation of the part preceding "wie mit Zahlen" and it is also the less likely interpretation. Adding "wie mit Zahlen" clarifies which meaning was intended.
And why "wie" -- does not "wie" suggest that a comparison or metaphor is being made, rather than a literal statement?
"Wie mit Zahlen" serves the same function as the "as with numbers" you put in parentheses. It explains that "rechnen" means "do calculations" and not "expect something" by way of a comparison with something completely unambiguous, i.e. calculating numbers.
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edmont
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Re: Help with translating a phrase

Beitrag von edmont »

tiorthan, thank you.

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